After watching On Assignment with Richard Engel https://www.msnbc.com/onassignment last night, it finally dawned on me that a majority of Trump's supporters will reject whatever Robert Mueller finds with regard to evidence of the Trump campaign's collusion with the Russians in the 2016 election. On some level, I suppose I already knew this; but I really hadn't comprehended the mechanics of why that would be the case until last night. Previously, I had supposed that a large number of Trump's supporters had been convinced by him and his attorneys that the entire investigation really was a "witch hunt," rendering it and its conclusions illegitimate.
Engel's report, however, made clear to me that Trump's efforts to discredit the investigation are clearly secondary in the minds of many of his supporters. The real reason that many of them will reject any evidence that the campaign colluded with the Russians is that they don't see cooperation with the Russians as a bad thing!
In short, many of these folks see Vladimir Putin and his cohorts as being more like them than Obama and his supporters. They admire Putin's support of gun rights and his campaign against homosexuals. They admire the fact that many Russians have returned to the Christian fold via the Russian Orthodox Church. Moreover, they relate to Putin's efforts to make Russia great again. For many of these folks, MAGA (Make America Great Again) is of a kindred spirit with what Putin is doing in Russia. In other words, these folks like strong, jingoistic leadership. For them, Putin's Russia is a powerful ally against the forces of darkness (the American Left).
Taken together with the elevation of Brett Kavanaugh to the U.S. Supreme Court (and what that has done to Republican prospects for retaining control of Congress), I am not optimistic this morning about the immediate future of my country. I don't see this all ending well. Trump and his supporters are determined to stay put and see their agenda fully implemented - an agenda that is foreign and reprehensible to a clear majority of Americans. Where does this all end? Is a second civil war on the horizon?
Engel's report, however, made clear to me that Trump's efforts to discredit the investigation are clearly secondary in the minds of many of his supporters. The real reason that many of them will reject any evidence that the campaign colluded with the Russians is that they don't see cooperation with the Russians as a bad thing!
In short, many of these folks see Vladimir Putin and his cohorts as being more like them than Obama and his supporters. They admire Putin's support of gun rights and his campaign against homosexuals. They admire the fact that many Russians have returned to the Christian fold via the Russian Orthodox Church. Moreover, they relate to Putin's efforts to make Russia great again. For many of these folks, MAGA (Make America Great Again) is of a kindred spirit with what Putin is doing in Russia. In other words, these folks like strong, jingoistic leadership. For them, Putin's Russia is a powerful ally against the forces of darkness (the American Left).
Taken together with the elevation of Brett Kavanaugh to the U.S. Supreme Court (and what that has done to Republican prospects for retaining control of Congress), I am not optimistic this morning about the immediate future of my country. I don't see this all ending well. Trump and his supporters are determined to stay put and see their agenda fully implemented - an agenda that is foreign and reprehensible to a clear majority of Americans. Where does this all end? Is a second civil war on the horizon?
I hate to make this comparison, but there are days when I wake up imagining that I know how normal, balanced German citizens must have felt as they witnessed the support that so many of their family, friends, and neighbors gave to Adolf Hitler during his ascent and dominance. Not that I believe that I'd be any happier if Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders were our president instead. I believe they would have taken the country in an equally reactive bad and opposite direction. It seems extremism is the new normal.
ReplyDeletePeople don't understand why the religious right supports Donald Trump. A pastor friend recently shared with me his feelings that if Roe vs Wade is reversed, then God will once again be able to bless America. If indeed my friend speaks the thoughts of that movement, I would counsel them not to blind themselves to all of the badness for which they are giving our president a pass.
I believe we live in a time frame in which some people feel that a civil war would not necessarily be a bad thing, much as the '60s were an era when many felt that a revolution would be the only way to correct the societal injustices of those times. The overt "revolution" failed as people realized that the only way to effectively make changes was to work within the system. So, the revolutionaries went legit. Now, nearly 50 years worth of working within the system has only been met with greater resistance and backlash. What we are witnessing today is an unresolved, and continuing cultural war, amidst the death of compromise. As you say, it will not end well. Partisans do not wish to allow anyone to take the middle ground. A fight between two well defined opposing sides is by definition war. How long will it be before explosives enter the picture?
BB
Neither side seems to understand the intensity of feeling on the other side or to be inclined to do anything to accommodate the other. If either side is successful in fully imposing its will, I'm afraid that disaster is inevitable.
DeleteIn 1928 the vast majority of Germans thought of Hitler as a strange parvenu. A wierd one. Only 4 years later in the midst of vast economic crises he was voted in as "make Germany great again savior." If the moderate progressives or left if you will, keep ignoring why Trump was voted in and keep changing the fabric of america in rapid pace trusting in their own rightousness and ignoring their fellow citizens, they will never know what hit them from the right.
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of fact I assume a great deal of people on the left do not understand why prof Ford vs Kavanaugh was a ridicilous political spectacle to behold and will equally not umderstand why the democrats will be wiped away in november.
Dont get me wrong I am not a Trump supporter at all but the speed the left os changing both the fabric of USA and Europe is bound to end in a clash of some sorts.
In europe the gut reaction usually is to "cleanse" the fabric, in the usa it has been armed struggle domestic or abroad or the assasination of people in high places. I expect an increase in the latter.
I saw a documentary where US nazis regarded charlottesville as the first clash in many to come. But the ones speaking were a sad lot who changed their views about the muslim producer rather quick after she befriended them and was respectful in her conversation. These are not the guys to unleash civil war. These were sad hurt people (iraq veterans) who needed a listening ear or a loving female companion.
I believe the right will only resort to arms when some kind of martial law gets imposed for reasons that would seem reasonable to most people. So if any armed struggle would be initiated it would be through a push from the left with a reaction from the right.
Politically the right might be on a winning streak the next two years, so for them there is no reason for violent action in the near future.
My sources tell me that Roe vs Wade is based on jurisprudence regarding slavery. The argument goes that if Roe vs Wade goes, slavery could return. If that theory becomes mainstream we might have our "race war" predicted since the sixties. Most likely it will be a war between the haves and have nots once the white have nots realize that capitalism betrayed them and they realize slavery has indeed returned perpetrated once again by raw capitalism.
Civil war?
I dont know. Revolution. For sure if the current economic winning streak turns out to be a bubble again. But the nature of a bubble is its invisibility.
So pay of your credit card debts and make some friends in asia or europe. Perhaps the remnants of the atlantic fleet will be allowed to anchor with the american refugees seeking a non violent life and good health care and public education. The Eurasian landmass has plenty of potential
Has infrastructure through the chinese belt initiative and a rapidly dwindling white population. Anyone with the neanderthal gene adapted for colder climates should be welcome if the Europeans find cause for folowing their gut instinct.
Its a mess.
Nck
The right doesn't understand the left either. Both sides want to impose their views on the whole. I also think that both sides are not above violence. In America, everybody owns guns - conservatives and liberals.
DeleteThe really disturbing development on the right is the antipathy toward science and the promulgation of "alternative facts." How do you reach someone who is immune to evidence which contradicts their position? We (you, BB and me) have some experience with this phenomenon.
That might ring true intellectually.
DeleteThe reality of social change often is that "the new" needs to prove the merits to "the old" or face resistance. (like the brexit vote when the older generation destroyed the future of the young wallowing in nostalgia of an heroic past)
All humans bear evidence of violent tendencies, left or right or middle. Is is the "why" that differs. When do certain groups get activated, for what reasons? Sometimes violence is anarchic often quite disciplined. The rigth seems to be very clear what that would be as they see themselves as guardians of the constitution (or slow changing order).
Antipathy towards science and receptive to "alternative facts". To me that is not a new "development" but part of Americana since the Salem witch trials. On one of these threads I gave a lengthy (incoherent) timeline of culture clash from the 1870's onward.
People immune to evidence that contradicts their position? Hardly. Usually it is a failure to understand why a person takes a certain position.
I gave the example of the spokesman of the neo nazis at charlotte. When the friendly (beatiful) muslim documentary maker talked entered in conversation their "gentlemanly" manners prevailed over their political views. They said several times that they considered the reporter "a friend" and were shocked and dismayed when the reporter read right wing threads directed at her persona. I believe in the end they would catch a bullet for her.
What happened there. They never met a woman like that (or a moderate muslim for that matter) who listened to their plight human to human, their friends who were blown up in Iraq, the unemployment situation, their fears of losing to "newcomers."
I gave the example of the 1928 germans who would not consider voting for crazy hitler until maslov pyramid folded upon them and the facts didn't matter anymore, just food and work, whatever the cost or the narrative.
In sales a lot of customers will reply "that is too expensive" while in reality they are saying, I am not up to defending new investment to my boss, You need to talk to somenone else, give me more information to convince my finance manager.
HOW do you reach out in politics?
Well we have a system called democracy in which specific and implicit rules developed over 200 years to breach the unbreachable.
I find it disturbing that people don't play by the rules and traditions anymore that developed over many years for a reason. An example the election of a judge needed a 2 third majority reaching across both isles. The Obama administration changed that to a "simple majority." Now the republicans played the same trick on the democrats by electing kavanaugh with a simple majority.
You reap what you sow.
Somehow both sides have convinced themselves that the other side "has no right to rule.' There must be a way to return mutual respect besides creating a common enemy like alien invaders or godzilla.
For example same sex marriages. That is a radical breach with thousands of years of history. People should expect resistance. Even on that topic I believe moderates of all sides after discussion can agree that "partners" in all manner of cohabitation should have same rights to alternative ways or traditional ways of cohabitation. But perhaps the "word" marriage to call those rights that way is one bridge too far. People should be able to compromise on that while of course defending the equal rights for all.
Polarized people should talk to each other and ask questions. "I hear you love the constitution." Who does what you just said relate to that and that article of the constitution? Why would you deny another person such and such and why would you ask that of another? How can we legislate that in the spirit of the constitution, respect for the last election results and accomodating your views on the subject as far as possible?
nck
As a kid I could at first not understand how british nobles could be part of the labor party or why the rich merchants of old cities provided amenities for the poor.
ReplyDeleteAs an adult I learned that it was possible that their personal morality caused them to respond to the "facts on the ground", but also the common practicality of the business person who wanted to roam the streets of their cities without being mugged and see their children grow up without being affected by the diseases spread by the poor.
I hope one day businessmen (women) will engage their inner morality and understand their complete and holistic,, intrinisic part of society. That it is not their task to divide a society of citizens through buying politicians that further their limited goals and statistics but their task to support long lasting solutions that provide for a complete society to thrive.
Where did the morality of the business people of yesteryear go. Where are the people who dare speak frankly to the elites about the task ahead.
For now the younger generation is a minority. But they should never give up on their ideals and realize that every new generation gets their chance, but that unfortunately through the advent of medication and affluence this generation might stay around (in power) a little longer to their detriment.
The new generation can start afresh not burdened by the superstitions and solutions of the past.
nck